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  1. We got language so we can't communicate
    Religion so I can love and hate
    Music so I can exaggerate my pain, and give it a name

    U2 - 2014
  2. Originally posted by treasure:We got language so we can't communicate
    Religion so I can love and hate
    Music so I can exaggerate my pain, and give it a name

    U2 - 2014
    Pretty hard to think of wars that weren't about relegion
  3. I'm proud to live in a democracy where we got to vote to change our constitution. I know many people who voted no - that's why we call it democracy but I'm glad that we got the result we did
  4. The wars in the last 2 century's werent about religion. But used religion to do horrible things. More about the difference between rich and poor than about religion imo.


    Great post bpt3 I think 90% of all the believers in the world (Muslim, christian, jew etc.) are just good people who live their life and let others have their rights.
  5. Originally posted by Bloodraven:[..]


    Well, to begin with, those "fairly clear" commands against homosexuality (and working on sabath and many many many many other things) are in the Old Testament and...

    two things you should keep in mind: it's not just that it's not the "only" thing the old testament is against (check all kind of weird laws regarding food, slavery, marriages, menstruation and on and on and on...), but it's not on the "top of the list" by far... homosexuality is barely mentioned and is hardly singled out. It's just modern bias that focuses so much on that and once you realize that, frankly it looks silly.

    And the second one, is that Jesus didn't really agreed with many of those rules/laws, and specially never when they affected anybody.
    There's more than one instance when Jesus "brakes" the law or ignores it because he believes that LOVE is the supreme (and only) law. (And when I say he "ignores or brakes the law", I'm talking about the same Bible that we're talking about).

    I don't mind if churches and religions and religious people don't agree on marrying gay couples (religious wedding). I believe that that's their right. It's fair.

    I really dislike when churches and religions and religious people (specially when they call themselves christians) dislike or even hate a group of people, or fight against their rights in the society (civil weddings).


    Bloodraven, thanks for your response. I maybe should have also mentioned in my previous post that I am a Bible teacher at a private Christian school and that one of my classes I teach is an Old Testament Survey course, so I'm well aware of the issues at hand. I appreciate it, though!

    Particularly, I'm well aware that there are many strange things in Leviticus that Christians don't attempt to "obey" anymore. For Christians today to base their opposition against homosexuality on Leviticus alone is silly, indeed, as Christ came to fulfill and do away with (as you said) many of the ceremonial and ritualistic laws that had become barriers of exclusion against all other kinds of people. This is what Paul talks about a lot in his letters in the New Testament, as does especially the Book of Hebrews.

    At the same time, while Jesus does indeed reinterpret or "break" certain O.T. laws in the name of unconditional love, and while he admittedly never refers to homosexual practice, he also never says anything in favor of it...and where it comes up in the Pauline letters it's always negative. This is where it gets difficult for me - on the one hand there is a certain "trajectory" throughout Scripture of ever-expanding unconditional agape love (as Harry said above!) but this is also in the setting of God reclaiming and renewing his original intent for creation in the first place...which, even if we interpret Adam and Eve are symbolic figures, looks like it includes marriage as a sacrament, celebrating the "mysterious distance between a man and a woman..."

    (Having said that, as a Christian who loves exploring how science and theology intersect, I find intriguing the possibility of evolutionary human origins suggesting that homosexual orientation was always a part of the human condition, even before what Christians refer to as the "fall" of humanity from God. If true, then maybe gay marriage can be seen by Christians as a "good" that God allows in order to, like heterosexual marriages, restrain destructive lust of all kind and cultivate selfless love and commitment to a partner - analogous to the selfless love we are called to imitate for God as seen in Christ for us. Either way, Jesus says that marriage will be transcended in the new creation age to come - Mark 12:18-27)

    Please understand, again, that I bring this up not as someone who is out to condemn homosexuals for their desire to get married. Like I said, in a democratic, civil society, I am all in favor of it! Totally agree with you there. I'm also just trying to read the Bible and trying to follow Jesus with integrity, and I think that involves both reading and understanding Scripture in its context BUT also not dismissing certain teachings simply because I find them inconvenient. Yet, this is where I am acknowledging my brokenness, finiteness, and limited understanding as a human being, and where I'll also admit that we as the Church haven't got it all figured out yet.

    If you're still reading, thanks again, and sorry if this comes off as long-winded. I hope Bono mentions something in L.A. tonight to spark further food for thought.
  6. Originally posted by bartajax:[..]
    The wars in the last 2 century's werent about religion. But used religion to do horrible things. More about the difference between rich and poor than about religion imo.


    Great post bpt3 I think 90% of all the believers in the world (Muslim, christian, jew etc.) are just good people who live their life and let others have their rights.
    Much appreciated!
  7. Originally posted by bpt3:[..]


    Bloodraven, thanks for your response. I maybe should have also mentioned in my previous post that I am a Bible teacher at a private Christian school and that one of my classes I teach is an Old Testament Survey course, so I'm well aware of the issues at hand. I appreciate it, though!

    Particularly, I'm well aware that there are many strange things in Leviticus that Christians don't attempt to "obey" anymore. For Christians today to base their opposition against homosexuality on Leviticus alone is silly, indeed, as Christ came to fulfill and do away with (as you said) many of the ceremonial and ritualistic laws that had become barriers of exclusion against all other kinds of people. This is what Paul talks about a lot in his letters in the New Testament, as does especially the Book of Hebrews.

    At the same time, while Jesus does indeed reinterpret or "break" certain O.T. laws in the name of unconditional love, and while he admittedly never refers to homosexual practice, he also never says anything in favor of it...and where it comes up in the Pauline letters it's always negative. This is where it gets difficult for me - on the one hand there is a certain "trajectory" throughout Scripture of ever-expanding unconditional agape love (as Harry said above!) but this is also in the setting of God reclaiming and renewing his original intent for creation in the first place...which, even if we interpret Adam and Eve are symbolic figures, looks like it includes marriage as a sacrament, celebrating the "mysterious distance between a man and a woman..."

    (Having said that, as a Christian who loves exploring how science and theology intersect, I find intriguing the possibility of evolutionary human origins suggesting that homosexual orientation was always a part of the human condition, even before what Christians refer to as the "fall" of humanity from God. If true, then maybe gay marriage can be seen by Christians as a "good" that God allows in order to, like heterosexual marriages, restrain destructive lust of all kind and cultivate selfless love and commitment to a partner - analogous to the selfless love we are called to imitate for God as seen in Christ for us. Either way, Jesus says that marriage will be transcended in the new creation age to come - Mark 12:18-27)

    Please understand, again, that I bring this up not as someone who is out to condemn homosexuals for their desire to get married. Like I said, in a democratic, civil society, I am all in favor of it! Totally agree with you there. I'm also just trying to read the Bible and trying to follow Jesus with integrity, and I think that involves both reading and understanding Scripture in its context BUT also not dismissing certain teachings simply because I find them inconvenient. Yet, this is where I am acknowledging my brokenness, finiteness, and limited understanding as a human being, and where I'll also admit that we as the Church haven't got it all figured out yet.

    If you're still reading, thanks again, and sorry if this comes off as long-winded. I hope Bono mentions something in L.A. tonight to spark further food for thought.
    bpt3 all positive and no negativity here as far as I can see so I'm glad I took the time to read it
  8. I think that religion is one of the things that fucks the world up... I believe in God, just in God, I don't need a church for this, I don't need the bible...
  10. This is one of the reasons why I love U2 and Bono himself. He has something to say, and he doesn't care if half of his audience might be against it - just goes for it.

    Oh, and regarding this "God doesn't accept gay people" bullshit... IF a God or Gods existed, they would love every one of their sons equally as long as their sons loved and respected each other. Nevertheless, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (based largely on the Bible precepts) declares that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights (article 1). Democratic states are ruled by Constitutions that should obey the UDHR, therefore same-sex marriage (just as any other civil right) should be legal and universal in all democracies around the world. Period.
  11. Originally posted by LikeASong:This is one of the reasons why I love U2 and Bono himself. He has something to say, and he doesn't care if half of his audience might be against it - just goes for it.

    Oh, and regarding this "God doesn't accept gay people" bullshit... IF a God or Gods existed, they would love every one of their sons equally as long as their sons loved and respected each other. Nevertheless, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (based largely on the Bible precepts) declares that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights (article 1). Democratic states are ruled by Constitutions that should obey the UDHR, therefore same-sex marriage (just as any other civil right) should be legal and universal in all democracies around the world. Period.


    Totally agreed!

    As a Christian who does believe that God exists I see fellow Christians today falling into three camps on this, largely influenced by denominational affiliation:

    1. Gay marriage should be illegal. The more radical fringes of this group would say "God doesn't accept gay people," which is total bullshit, as you say. The less anti-intellectual would simply say they shouldn't marry but God still loves them.

    2. Gay marriage should of course be legal politically in civil society, even if Church members don't condone or endorse gay marriages in their churches for theological/scriptural reasons.

    3. Gay marriage should be endorsed and celebrated. Scripture condemns homosexual lust like it does every kind of lust, but not monogamous gay marriages.

    I myself am between 2 and 3, if I'm being completely honest...Trying to stay faithful to Scripture and yet very open to how evolutionary origins of human beings and modern day experience of several friends and family relatives who are gay might cause a "re-reading" of the Bible on this and push me more into number 3 territory completely.