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  1. Hey everybody,

    Apologies if this has already been discussed at length (I've searched the forums and cannot find a similar thread).

    More and more recordings are going up as "FLAC or nothing" lately, and I've never seen this policy here at U2start before the I+E Tour.

    So now instead of being able to directly download the MP3s in 3-5 minutes, we are ALL being required to:
    -Download a file that is 4-5x bigger than the one we need
    -Waste 6x-8x the amount of time on the download (Mega starts to throttle your speed somewhere around the 400-500mb mark, so the overall download speed is disproportionally slower)
    -Hog unnecessary bandwidth
    -Spend an additional 5-10 minutes on the manual conversion to MP3
    -And then 95% of us will delete the FLAC file we never wanted in the first place.

    And this is happening for something like 1/3 of the new recordings. More and more shows have no direct MP3 option at all.

    Could we look into possibly revising this? Maybe seeking some clarification from the tapers in question, or implementing a middle ground compromise (like offering both FLAC and MP3 if the taper requests something to that effect)?

    I'm all for respecting the wishes of tapers. But I've been reading a lot of their info files in entirety, and while I could be wrong, I just don't get the sense that the purpose of those rules was to force every member of the U2start community to undergo a convoluted, time-consuming process of downloading and manually converting FLAC, whether we want it or not.

    To be honest, I wouldn't be shocked if U2start wasn't even on many of their radars.

    Now if I'm wrong, and if some of these tapers have specifically said that it's not OK for U2start offer MP3s, then in that case, it would be pretty fucked up for them to willfully impose an arbitrary inconvenience on us.

    But I DON'T assume that this is the case.

    Overall, tapers strike me as mostly generous, reasonable people. As the U2start FAQ points out, they are willing to go through all the trouble of recording & sharing a show for the benefit of other people, which is a huge pain in the ass.

    Pretty much every taper communicates a set of rules, but those rules mostly seem reasonable and for the benefit of the whole community.

    I haven't seen 1 rule besides the "no MP3 / lossy sharing" rule that could even possibly be interpreted as upholding some sort of Platonic form of sound quality at all costs, even in contexts where it may inconvenience others.

    The rules are usually commonsense terms of engagement that are required in all lossless trading circles, like:
    -Don't profit / make money off of this
    -Don't change the info file
    -Give the tapers full credit for their work
    -Support the artist

    And then there's some version of
    -Do not upload as MP3
    -MP3 for personal use only
    Which to me sounds like, "don't participate in a lossless trading circle and try to pass off an lossy or lossy-sourced recording as a lossless one."

    And yes, there are certain examples like JB's info file, which specifically says "do not upload as MP3 anywhere" but:
    a) He is extremely concise about everything throughout his whole info file
    b) There's a very good chance that "uploading anywhere" assumes "lossless trading circle" (like DIME, U2torrents, Traders Den, etc).

    Way back in the Stone Age of CD-Rs, "No lossy trading" specifically meant "No swapping of physical CD-Rs from a lossy source." Because doing that even ONE time ruins the AVAILABILITY of the original lossless recording in circulation for everyone else.

    That rule wasn't implemented as an act of deference to the taper's quality preferences. It was implemented to keep a technological limitation from poisoning the well of available bootlegs.

    In other words, that's just how CD duplication works.

    Today, we live in an amazing age of abundance and choice. If I have the choice to directly download an MP3, I'm not ruining ANYTHING for ANYBODY else.

    The EXISTENCE, WIDESPREAD AVAILABILITY, and EASE OF ACQUISITION of the FLAC source file remain perfectly intact for anybody who wants it.

    In fact, U2start has been posting MP3s for 9 years, and it has NEVER been easier to acquire the FLAC version of ANY recording in history than it is today.

    In other words, "There is no them. There's only us."

    So there's my two cents on why I think this is worth looking into.

    Cheers,
    Eddie Q aka U2met86
  2. Thanks for your concerns. Unfortunately, that's what tapers are requiring, more and more frequently nowadays. Some of them ask for their permission to upload FLAC files here or in any site. We are just respecting taper's wishes.
  3. From our lossless FAQ:

    Why are some bootlegs only available in lossless?
    Most of the bootlegs you hear on U2start have kindly been recorded by a taper who has attended the venue with a lot of equipment (often against venue rules), located a good recording spot and often has had to stand still during the show in order to get a good recording of the show. When tapers share their recordings, they will often do so in a lossless format to ensure that what is shared is of the highest possible quality. Very often a taper will request that their recording is not shared in a lossy format because this reduces the quality of their recording. Although a lot of us may not hear any difference between lossless and lossy, we at U2start feel it is important to respect the wishes of tapers as not doing so may mean that tapers may be put off from sharing future recordings which is of no benefit to the whole community.

    Where a show only available in lossless, you can download it and convert it to your desired format. Feel free to ask for help on our forums if you need any help with how to do this.

    Also, we make it very easy and accessible to convert it to MP3. We display a help icon on the download page when a recording is only available in lossless that points to this page which explains how you can convert FLAC to MP3, which takes 2 clicks and 5 minutes. Given broadband internet and speed nowadays and such easy tools, it's almost NO effort at all to convert it to MP3 for personal use. And if by this way we please everyone, why shouldn't we?
  4. If somebody takes the time o firstly record the show and they then tweak it and improve that recording and then go to the trouble of adding in the info and track listings and in some cases covers too....they may request that their recording only be downloaded or reshared as a flac format but you can download it and run it thru any audio converter and you will have a mp3 version in under 5 minutes which is a hell of a lot less than the original uploader spent.....so be thankful
  5. Originally posted by patrickwaldron:If somebody takes the time o firstly record the show and they then tweak it and improve that recording and then go to the trouble of adding in the info and track listings and in some cases covers too....they may request that their recording only be downloaded or reshared as a flac format but you can download it and run it thru any audio converter and you will have a mp3 version in under 5 minutes which is a hell of a lot less than the original uploader spent.....so be thankful
    Exactly, it takes 2 minutes and 3 clicks to convert FLAC to MP3 and the download will only last a couple of minutes longer. It's quite straightforward. (see our lossless FAQ for a simple how-to)

    @u2met86: You are free to request tapers if it's OK to post public links to the MP3 recording on U2start and we will be happy to do so when this is OK. But if it's either lossless and a recording or lossy and no-recordings then the choice is easy.
  6. Originally posted by patrickwaldron:If somebody takes the time o firstly record the show and they then tweak it and improve that recording and then go to the trouble of adding in the info and track listings and in some cases covers too....they may request that their recording only be downloaded or reshared as a flac format but you can download it and run it thru any audio converter and you will have a mp3 version in under 5 minutes which is a hell of a lot less than the original uploader spent.....so be thankful


    Nothing in my post implied that I'm not thankful to have the recording.

    I acknowledge that the taper went through "a hell of a lot" of time to do all this.

    But it's a NATURALLY-occurring inconvenience. That's what it takes to end up with a good recording.

    None of us ARBITRARILY DECIDED to MAKE that process ANY more difficult for the taper than it absolutely has to be.

    Also, the taper goes through THE SAME INCONVENIENCE whether:
    -It takes me 5 minutes to download MP3
    -It takes me 15 minutes to download FLAC
    -It takes me a half hour to CIRCLE-JERK the FLAC into MP3 against my will

    The selfless act of a taper going through the trouble to record a show and making the FLAC available for other people's benefit is wonderful.

    So is the selfless act of 1 U2starter making converting the FLAC to MP3 and making THAT available so the rest of us don't have to do this manually
  7. Like Remy said, it's not that we don't want to convert it to mp3s for you, is that if we do that violating taper's wishes, they'll just stop sharing their recordings and everyone looses.
  8. Originally posted by cesar_garza01:Like Remy said, it's not that we don't want to convert it to mp3s for you, is that if we do that violating taper's wishes, they'll just stop sharing their recordings and everyone looses.
    Yep, there is no one here that disagrees with you (or maybe not a lot of people), so if you want to change something then start a dialogue with the tapers We would be happy to help there.
  9. Originally posted by Remy:From our lossless FAQ:

    [..]

    Also, we make it very easy and accessible to convert it to MP3. We display a help icon on the download page when a recording is only available in lossless that points to this page which explains how you can convert FLAC to MP3, which takes 2 clicks and 5 minutes. Given broadband internet and speed nowadays and such easy tools, it's almost NO effort at all to convert it to MP3 for personal use. And if by this way we please everyone, why shouldn't we?


    Remy, I read the FAQ.

    The process doesn't take 2 clicks and 5 minutes. It takes twenty minutes to a half hour (downloading and converting).

    I know people suffer worse fates than this, and if this way pleases tapers then the policy will stay, but this way doesn't please everyone.

    I know the taper went through more trouble than I did and I appreciate all the trouble he went through. That's always been the case that the taper goes through more trouble than the listener, even back in the days of trading cassette tapes and CD-Rs.

    My point is that I am frustrated by being forced to undergo a 20-30 minute process, when technology allows us to do it in 3-to-5 minutes, just because 1 person arbitrarily says so. That's all.

    And I disagree with the implication of the FAQ where it says "converting to lossy decreases the sound quality of the recording."

    Yes, MP3 is lower quality than FLAC. If you're a taper, and you have shows in circulation, then somewhere out there, somebody is probably listening to it as an MP3. There's no reason for this fact to give the taper a heart attack.

    But as I said before, having the MP3 directly available nowadays doesn't affect the availability of original FLAC source recording for those who want it.

    The "no lossy sharing" rule being invoked was invented decades ago as a technological necessity. Today it is an obsolete, anachronistic power trip.

  10. As I said, I agree with some of the conceptual things in your post. You have to open a dialogue with the individual taper, not with us here.

    For us it is a decision based on pros and cons. For why doing it lossy:
    Pros: Smaller file, easy download, easy access.
    Cons: No more recordings of this taper.

    For why doing it lossless:
    Pros: More recordings of this taper. Broadband internet and tools make it easier nowadays to convert and download FLAC/lossless.
    Cons: It takes more time and effort.

    Outweighing pros and cons, we've decided to go for lossless if a taper wants us to do so. You may disagree but that's simply a decision we took and will stick with for now. The previous tour we didn't choose for this but that's because back then internet was slower and tools were not as accessible as they are now. Plus we also want to be a community for the tapers, and for the fans. For everyone.
  11. If it comes down to a choice between a FLAC recording or no recording , i know what choice i will take....I know my speed here is good but even at home it only takes max 15 between the download and coverting to mp3.....

    The tapers wishes must be adhered to otherwise they will stop sharing and thats one thing we dont want to happen.....im currently listening to a great Flac recording i personally converted...

    By respecting the tapers wishes we guarantee that they will post again....by going against those wishes and the audio link may remain blank
  12. Quoting Remy

    "Plus we also want to be a community for the tapers, and for the fans. For everyone."

    There is no them...there's only us