1. I was going to post this as an off-topic reply to the current conversation in the Rehearsals topic, but the discussion I hope it inspires would de-rail the thread to a point I don't really want to worry about as a crew member.

    This is meant to inspire a conversation, so please reply with opinions. Dismantle my theory, change my mind, provide extra evidence, do whatever you'd like. I'm not posting this to gain support in a "yeah, fuck those guys!" way, but if that's the way you feel and it's all you have to say, then I encourage you to at least say it.

    I quote the following individuals only to provide context for my post, and not to challenge anyone's opinion or call anyone out specifically.

    Originally posted by dylbagz:[..]
    Yes I guess people who buy and sell cars at a profit or homes or stocks without actually physically creating value are such bad people too




    Originally posted by deanallison:[..]

    I think there’s more to it than an everything is great mentality. The problem with the ticket pricing issue us we could go round in circles with the same arguments and ultimately it becomes pointless after a while. There’s not many people that disagree with the view that the tickets are expensive, particularly when there’s so many of them at top price. The thing is that it will bother some people and not bother others, and whilst people have a right to say it’s ridiculous others also have the right to say I’m not bothered. Most u2.com members probably wouldn’t have to resort to the top price tickets anyway and honestly if I thought u2 alone could do something about expensive tickets I’d get behind the cause but I really think putting laws in place is the only way we’ll stop these high prices because it’s the only way of getting rid of scalpers. I don’t think that will happen though so under current laws I’d rather u2 were getting the money than scalpers, even if it does make them look bad and people aren’t happy about it.



    ------------

    Let me begin with a general disclaimer that will be addressed in a full-circle matter at the end of this (long) post - I do not believe that Ticketmaster (etc) are working behind the scenes to dump tickets directly to StubHub in a secret profit-sharing scam. It is a conspiracy believed by many, but having worked in live concert contracting / ticketing / etc. for years now, I simply don't believe it. It's an educated opinion, but still just an opinion.

    I've had many debates about secondary markets for tickets, whether the tickets are being scalped or not. The opposing argument is that secondary markets are a "free market" mentality, where the owner of a ticket is allowed to sell it for whatever they want. If you don't want the tickets, don't buy them.

    I equate the whole thing this way:

    I'm in no way wrapped up in the world of specialty sneakers (shoes / whatever your region calls them), but it's a similar mentality in terms of on-sales. At least in certain markets in the USA, people of all ages will literally line up outside shopping malls overnight so that they can bust down the doors to buy a newly released pair of sneakers. It's similar to the old days of lining up to buy tickets in person, and similar to sitting at the computer at 9:59 AM, testing the limits of your refresh button, to be the first in line and get the tickets.

    If there are 500 pairs of sneakers priced at $100, and you are #501 in line, you're shit-out-of-luck. That's the game, and you lose. Sometimes that happens. If the 400th person in line bought them solely to make a profit, and he is walking out of the mall with a sign that says "NEW SNEAKERS: $300," you have every right to buy them. You have every right to ignore him. But he owns those sneakers now, so he gets to dictate his price to sell them. Again - that's the game. Sometimes you lose.

    But consider this:

    There are 500 pairs of sneakers priced at $100, and you're #450 in line. Things are looking...pretty good. You may not be guaranteed to get those sneakers, but you've got a good shot. The mall opens at 10:00AM.

    At 9:30AM, the truck with the sneakers arrives to deliver them at the mall. As they're being unloaded, quite a few people who aren't in line stand at the back of the truck and hand the delivery drivers $100 per pair they take. They end up buying 250 pairs of sneakers, and they pay for all of them. The sneaker company makes money either way. The people who bought the sneakers off the truck are participating in a free market environment. They stand at the doors to the mall, and as hundreds of people hang their heads in disappointment on their way out the doors, they wave the sneakers in their face at $300 a pop.

    People are queuing for sneakers that they never had a chance to buy in the first place due to the business practices of the sneaker company.

    The secondary market is treated and defended as a "free marketplace," but the practices that the market takes advantage of SHOULD BE downright illegal, and are absolutely designed to cheat the lay-person while making sure the original sellers of the product are still paid out.

    Is the market really a "free market" unless all aspects of these transactions are presumed to be fair? How "fair" is "fair trade?"

    My dad tried to argue with me all the time that StubHub, etc. aren't doing anything wrong, and stood strong with the "free marketplace" reasoning. It wasn't until I compared the act of ticket scalping and how it occurs to this physical example that he got it. StubHub isn't inherently doing anything wrong by providing a free marketplace, but turning a blind eye to these insane practices is so, so toxic. These companies should have a vested interest in protecting customers, ensuring that these practices aren't taken advantage of, and battling the corruption of the very marketplace they tout.

    But, since StubHub takes a commission on every dollar vended through their marketplace, and these insanely overpriced tickets earn them even more money on their markup, they're not going to advocate for lessening their profits. Ticketmaster may not be secretly profit-sharing with StubHub, but in raising "service fees" and other extraneous charges on tickets, everyone benefits but the consumer. A higher bottom line means a higher commission on a marked-up ticket in the StubHub marketplace.

    If there is one thing I wish to accomplish in life / this industry before I die, it is to revolutionize the way the worldwide public is getting royally fucked by the ticketing marketplace.

    Food for thought.
  2. That is brilliant.
  3. Originally posted by MattG:I was going to post this as an off-topic reply to the current conversation in the Rehearsals topic, but the discussion I hope it inspires would de-rail the thread to a point I don't really want to worry about as a crew member.

    This is meant to inspire a conversation, so please reply with opinions. Dismantle my theory, change my mind, provide extra evidence, do whatever you'd like. I'm not posting this to gain support in a "yeah, fuck those guys!" way, but if that's the way you feel and it's all you have to say, then I encourage you to at least say it.

    I quote the following individuals only to provide context for my post, and not to challenge anyone's opinion or call anyone out specifically.

    [..]


    [..]


    [..]



    ------------

    Let me begin with a general disclaimer that will be addressed in a full-circle matter at the end of this (long) post - I do not believe that Ticketmaster (etc) are working behind the scenes to dump tickets directly to StubHub in a secret profit-sharing scam. It is a conspiracy believed by many, but having worked in live concert contracting / ticketing / etc. for years now, I simply don't believe it. It's an educated opinion, but still just an opinion.

    I've had many debates about secondary markets for tickets, whether the tickets are being scalped or not. The opposing argument is that secondary markets are a "free market" mentality, where the owner of a ticket is allowed to sell it for whatever they want. If you don't want the tickets, don't buy them.

    I equate the whole thing this way:

    I'm in no way wrapped up in the world of specialty sneakers (shoes / whatever your region calls them), but it's a similar mentality in terms of on-sales. At least in certain markets in the USA, people of all ages will literally line up outside shopping malls overnight so that they can bust down the doors to buy a newly released pair of sneakers. It's similar to the old days of lining up to buy tickets in person, and similar to sitting at the computer at 9:59 AM, testing the limits of your refresh button, to be the first in line and get the tickets.

    If there are 500 pairs of sneakers priced at $100, and you are #501 in line, you're shit-out-of-luck. That's the game, and you lose. Sometimes that happens. If the 400th person in line bought them solely to make a profit, and he is walking out of the mall with a sign that says "NEW SNEAKERS: $300," you have every right to buy them. You have every right to ignore him. But he owns those sneakers now, so he gets to dictate his price to sell them. Again - that's the game. Sometimes you lose.

    But consider this:

    There are 500 pairs of sneakers priced at $100, and you're #450 in line. Things are looking...pretty good. You may not be guaranteed to get those sneakers, but you've got a good shot. The mall opens at 10:00AM.

    At 9:30AM, the truck with the sneakers arrives to deliver them at the mall. As they're being unloaded, quite a few people who aren't in line stand at the back of the truck and hand the delivery drivers $100 per pair they take. They end up buying 250 pairs of sneakers, and they pay for all of them. The sneaker company makes money either way. The people who bought the sneakers off the truck are participating in a free market environment. They stand at the doors to the mall, and as hundreds of people hang their heads in disappointment on their way out the doors, they wave the sneakers in their face at $300 a pop.

    People are queuing for sneakers that they never had a chance to buy in the first place due to the business practices of the sneaker company.

    The secondary market is treated and defended as a "free marketplace," but the practices that the market takes advantage of SHOULD BE downright illegal, and are absolutely designed to cheat the lay-person while making sure the original sellers of the product are still paid out.

    Is the market really a "free market" unless all aspects of these transactions are presumed to be fair? How "fair" is "fair trade?"

    My dad tried to argue with me all the time that StubHub, etc. aren't doing anything wrong, and stood strong with the "free marketplace" reasoning. It wasn't until I compared the act of ticket scalping and how it occurs to this physical example that he got it. StubHub isn't inherently doing anything wrong by providing a free marketplace, but turning a blind eye to these insane practices is so, so toxic. These companies should have a vested interest in protecting customers, ensuring that these practices aren't taken advantage of, and battling the corruption of the very marketplace they tout.

    But, since StubHub takes a commission on every dollar vended through their marketplace, and these insanely overpriced tickets earn them even more money on their markup, they're not going to advocate for lessening their profits. Ticketmaster may not be secretly profit-sharing with StubHub, but in raising "service fees" and other extraneous charges on tickets, everyone benefits but the consumer. A higher bottom line means a higher commission on a marked-up ticket in the StubHub marketplace.

    If there is one thing I wish to accomplish in life / this industry before I die, it is to revolutionize the way the worldwide public is getting royally fucked by the ticketing marketplace.

    Food for thought.
    well put.

    p.s.- how do you feel at TM's verified resale "response" to stub hub?

    p.p.s. - anyone who pays $300 for a pair of sneakers that look like a neon rainbow puked on them is, well... never mind.
  4. There are benefits to Ticketmaster's verified resale program - for example, if you buy tickets through a fan-to-fan transaction on their resale page, and the show is then cancelled, the appropriate party is reimbursed.

    On the contrary, I once sold tickets to a Death Cab for Cutie show that I couldn't attend on StubHub. The show was cancelled at the last minute due to illness, and Ticketmaster automatically refunded my purchase to my bank account...even though I'd already sold the tickets. They were digital tickets and I didn't have to ship them to the buyer...so I didn't have any information to contact him. I waited for StubHub to contact me asking me to send back the payment I received for the tix, but they never did. I have no idea if that guy ever got his money back from StubHub.

    It's really the same idea though - apart from its minimal benefits, its just another example of a ticket service offering a "free marketplace" for tickets to be resold. I haven't looked into it, but I would be SHOCKED if TM didn't make at least a few bucks in commission off of tickets sold through their marketplace. I'm sure they see all of the dollars changing hands on other websites, and decided they could implement a secondary market right on their own website to get a piece of the action.
  5. I have a problem with reseller sites only when they are owned by first party sellers. That's Ticketmaster owning Seatwave and that is double dipping and leaves them open to conflict of interest arguments.

    Otherwise I don't have a problem with expensive tickets. I know I won't spend more than £100 for a ticket to see ANY artist. If it's too expensive then I don't go. If someone is happy with that price then fine but while tours and shows keep breaking box office and attendance records then nothing will change. I do believe we are fast approaching a tipping point where the value proposition will put the majority of folk off from attending gigs. No promoter or performer wants empty seats so prices will fall in reaction.

    For now though it just seems that promoters, managers and likely performers are keen to seek out what that maximum ticket price is that people are willing to pay and that's what they will charge.
  6. Originally posted by MattG:There are benefits to Ticketmaster's verified resale program - for example, if you buy tickets through a fan-to-fan transaction on their resale page, and the show is then cancelled, the appropriate party is reimbursed.

    On the contrary, I once sold tickets to a Death Cab for Cutie show that I couldn't attend on StubHub. The show was cancelled at the last minute due to illness, and Ticketmaster automatically refunded my purchase to my bank account...even though I'd already sold the tickets. They were digital tickets and I didn't have to ship them to the buyer...so I didn't have any information to contact him. I waited for StubHub to contact me asking me to send back the payment I received for the tix, but they never did. I have no idea if that guy ever got his money back from StubHub.

    It's really the same idea though - apart from its minimal benefits, its just another example of a ticket service offering a "free marketplace" for tickets to be resold. I haven't looked into it, but I would be SHOCKED if TM didn't make at least a few bucks in commission off of tickets sold through their marketplace. I'm sure they see all of the dollars changing hands on other websites, and decided they could implement a secondary market right on their own website to get a piece of the action.
    TM definitely takes a cut. A 2nd bite of the apple, if you will as they already took fees from their original sale. The way I see it, it's their "if ya can't beat 'em, compete with 'em" approach... with the benefit of using them being what you mentioned.
  7. Ticket prices also scale with demographics. The average age of a U2 ticket buyer, compared to the average annual salary of that age group / demographic, will yield higher ticket prices for their shows. There is absolutely market research going into those decisions, based on box office data Gerard mentions above. They have your information when you purchase tickets - its tied to your credit card.

    Younger people tend to see younger bands, at lower ticket prices. Concert ticket prices don't keep going up, really...they scale with the age of the band and its followers. You can absolutely still see an incredible show within most genre boundaries for $10 - $40.

    There aren't too many bands charging what U2 does for tickets simply because there aren't that many bands that have been around as long as U2, and don't have the money within their fanbase to pull it off.
  8. Another point regarding re-selling sites is to note that the vast majority of tickets on stubhub, seatwave etc are being sold by individuals. Yes, scalping in its traditional sense is still big business but Seatwave and co make it so easy for the every man to make a quick buck as well. Buying two tickets for a popular show? Then buy two spares to sell on seatwave. It's happening everywhere.

    And what is the reaction of concert promoters when they see thousands of tickets at much higher than face value? Increase the face value of course. There is clearly enough money around to sustain this model as shows keep selling out.
  9. The weak point that would have to be exposed here is actual attendance. The venues themselves make a certain (small, but sustainable) margin on ticket sales as it is, but their REAL money comes from point-of-sale purchases within the venue. This is completely spitballed off the top of my head, but look at it this way:

    United Center in Chicago holds something like 20k for a U2 show. If each individual purchases one beer (they're about $11 at United Center, no joke), they stand to make an additional $220,000. And that's just one beer - cocktails are more expensive, a lot of people have more than one, etc. Sure, some people don't drink any, but venues make into the millions on alcohol sales. They also are taking anywhere from 10%-20% cut in artist merch sales.

    If the secondary prices are too high, it keeps people out of the venue. The tickets may be sold, but the venues lose an EXTREME amount of revenue on every unfilled seat. I saw a Van Halen show in...probably 2011 or so. An entire section of the lower level was empty. Clearly purchased by a scalper, and the tickets didn't sell.

    We would have to see a HUGE impact on those in-venue revenue numbers for the big players like Live Nation to really start to care. They have enough revenue coming from enough other places that I doubt they ever will.

    But it's another element to consider.
  10. The whole ticketing issue makes me so sick that I can't discuss it anymore. I feel like I'm punching the wall and nothing's gonna come out of that. I feel we music fans are powerless against human greed (including corporations and individuals as Gerard points out), so the only true way out I see nowadays is quitting major rock acts and start attending only smaller bands concerts. They need my money and my presence way more than the big acts that will be selling out anyway. And it's painful because I happen to be a fan of several of the biggest bands in rock history, but what can I do? Venting my opinions over and over and over and over again in a forum or a facebook page isn't gonna change anything. Greed is still gonna be the main force behind Livenation's acts. We are still gonna be fucked.

    #sorry
  11. Originally posted by LikeASong:The whole ticketing issue makes me so sick that I can't discuss it anymore. I feel like I'm punching the wall and nothing's gonna come out of that. I feel we music fans are powerless against human greed (including corporations and individuals as Gerard points out), so the only true way out I see nowadays is quitting major rock acts and start attending only smaller bands concerts. They need my money and my presence way more than the big acts that will be selling out anyway. And it's painful because I happen to be a fan of several of the biggest bands in rock history, but what can I do? Venting my opinions over and over and over and over again in a forum or a facebook page isn't gonna change anything. Greed is still gonna be the main force behind Livenation's acts. We are still gonna be fucked.

    #sorry
    That's fine, but you will still pay for some tickets. I just don't buy any of their tickets anymore(No one should!). That's my middle finger to U2, trying to rape my bank account. Don't pay this ridiculous prices, they might wake up. Stop talking, act!