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  1. Bono sounds better now, but he looked better at the start of the tour.
  3. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40591750

    Sorry I feel the need to post this here and if it's going to cause offence then please delete my comment but what exactly is the world coming to. Banning ladies and gentlemen announcements, cmon. I'm as open minded as they come, gay, straight, black, white, transgender we all deserve the same respect but are we really saying the terms ladies and gentlemen are offensive? The worlds becoming a ridiculously over sensitive place, I'm completely against mocking people and using derogatory terms but I think people out there are starting to create further problems by using these steps which I actually think singles out certain people who they claim to be welcoming and causes more of a scene if you like around the issue. Please correct me in wrong though I would like to hear the point of view of someone who is for this and previously didn't feel welcome so I can understand it better.
  4. I'm with you, Dean.

  6. Just to change the subject to a lighter tone I was speaking a while back about a nice moment during zoo tv Sydney obviously the night after Adam had missed a show. And the photo I've attached was the moment I was talking about Bono giving what I think was almost like a metaphorical arm around Adam when he smiles at him. Really special moment showing the closeness of the band when Adam was going through a difficult time. Amazing where he is with his life now, he must be a huge inspiration to so many.
  7. If the comments are anything to go by, it generally seems to match what a few of us were saying earlier on in the thread - most commenters don't seem to be all that fussed. Also a strange article in itself - one paper almost reporting what another paper published verbatim. Ah well.
  8. Originally posted by deanallison:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40591750

    Sorry I feel the need to post this here and if it's going to cause offence then please delete my comment but what exactly is the world coming to. Banning ladies and gentlemen announcements, cmon. I'm as open minded as they come, gay, straight, black, white, transgender we all deserve the same respect but are we really saying the terms ladies and gentlemen are offensive? The worlds becoming a ridiculously over sensitive place, I'm completely against mocking people and using derogatory terms but I think people out there are starting to create further problems by using these steps which I actually think singles out certain people who they claim to be welcoming and causes more of a scene if you like around the issue. Please correct me in wrong though I would like to hear the point of view of someone who is for this and previously didn't feel welcome so I can understand it better.
    (NB: Mammoth post below, apologies in advance!)

    At first glance, I'm generally neutral, maybe leaning towards being in favour of the change, but entirely get and empathise with your take. If nothing else, why these things were never just a simple 'good morning', 'good afternoon', or 'good evening' is beyond me. Anyway.

    I think in a sense I'm fine with it because I'm all for neutral language that tries to address the widest range possible, but I also think that unfortunately it's being introduced at a time where our society and culture seems to be hamstrung on the narrative of political correctness / 'PC gone mad', which I'd say has been abused and co-opted as an attack dog for each side of the argument.

    Ultimately, in a 'free' society, where we have this idea of free speech, I think one should be prepared to be offended in the spirit of open, fair debate where we can analyse and criticise - but that doesn't mean a) we shouldn't have to accept offense or b) someone should feel the need to offend, whether intentionally or unintentionally, in order to challenge an idea - I think the languages of the world are expansive enough that we can take time to think about how to posit ideas and challenge opposing ones whilst being considerate.

    For me it's the old rights and responsibilities thing - and I do believe too many people believe they can exercise a right without having to accept the responsibility and consequences of that action. I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of proper dialogue and understanding the ways in which we all use language and the ways in which each of us interpret it. From my experience, humans seem so intent on trying to categorise life and everything in between, and package it into neat little boxes, when it reality, I think life is one big messy chaotic bundle, and every single one of us has a unique, individual experience of it.

    On a linguistic level, I do believe that the language we use does have a strong role in how certain social attitudes are subconsciously retained and sustained, e.g. addressing a mixed group of people as 'guys', or the fact that there is a split between addressing a married woman and an unmarried woman (Mrs and Miss) but not the same split for men in the same manner - it's simply Mr. To that end, I would say that there is a certain partriarchal impact embedded within many languages around the world that has reinforced what I see as attitudes that are hampering us as a society. However, whilst it's something I've found quite a few people agree with, that's still just a hypothesis I'm working on - I don't have any substantial evidence at this stage that shows a causal link.

    With regard to the announcement change, I'm not sure it's necessary (or unnecessary, even) but then as a pretty run-on-the-mill straight white guy, I'm not in the best position to comment. I can put my imagination to the test but I can't truly put myself in the shoes and understand how a trans person feels, whether mid-process or once they've completed their transition, in a society that's still getting to grips - and at times struggling - with gender and sexuality as a fluid concept rather than the much more binary notion that seems to have taken hold, particularly during the late 19th/20th centuries.

    If there was/is a substantive body of evidence developed over an extensive period of study to say that either the greeting was having a detrimental impact and the change will have a positive change (in whatever form that might be), I say fair play, go for it.

    Quite a few of my female friends get annoyed by the being referred to as 'lady' as they feel it conjures up a notion of women as shrinking violets etc. I can think of a few men I've met in my time who to my mind are certainly no gentlemen. Conversely, my aunt is chairman of a company, and she insists on being referred to as chairman rather than chair, chairwoman, or chairperson. Make of all that what you will!

    However, I think it's fair to say that words' meanings and inferences change over time. If the announcement had been 'men and women', I'd say most people would likely find it a bit strange, but then in terms of the words themselves, it's not much different, it's just how we interpret them - it's addressing an anonymous group of people in a binary fashion because that's just these things have always been done.

    I sincerely doubt it was ever brought into being with the intent of marginalising anyone, but if there are people who feel marginalised as a result and such a consequence is entirely avoidable by simply changing it, then I don't have much issue. I guess I come the school of thought that 'life is change' - although that's not to say that I think change in and of itself is synonymous with progress - so I think it's far more problematic to not explore and consider a change because of tradition, the status quo etc.

    I hope there's some sense in there - and apologies for it being a bit lengthy!

    H

    (PS: just for clarity, none of the above was necessarily assuming you thought the opposite or dissimilar, am just trying to frame my viewpoint as clearly as I can so it's easier for everyone to understand where I come from )
  9. Originally posted by deanallison:[image]
    Just to change the subject to a lighter tone I was speaking a while back about a nice moment during zoo tv Sydney obviously the night after Adam had missed a show. And the photo I've attached was the moment I was talking about Bono giving what I think was almost like a metaphorical arm around Adam when he smiles at him. Really special moment showing the closeness of the band when Adam was going through a difficult time. Amazing where he is with his life now, he must be a huge inspiration to so many.
    I love seeing their bond, and it's a wonderful example there - even now, 40 years on and you can't help but feel they're still visibly loving playing their music together in front of the world.
  10. Originally posted by WojBhoy:[..]
    (NB: Mammoth post below, apologies in advance!)

    At first glance, I'm generally neutral, maybe leaning towards being in favour of the change, but entirely get and empathise with your take. If nothing else, why these things were never just a simple 'good morning', 'good afternoon', or 'good evening' is beyond me. Anyway.

    I think in a sense I'm fine with it because I'm all for neutral language that tries to address the widest range possible, but I also think that unfortunately it's being introduced at a time where our society and culture seems to be hamstrung on the narrative of political correctness / 'PC gone mad', which I'd say has been abused and co-opted as an attack dog for each side of the argument.

    Ultimately, in a 'free' society, where we have this idea of free speech, I think one should be prepared to be offended in the spirit of open, fair debate where we can analyse and criticise - but that doesn't mean a) we shouldn't have to accept offense or b) someone should feel the need to offend, whether intentionally or unintentionally, in order to challenge an idea - I think the languages of the world are expansive enough that we can take time to think about how to posit ideas and challenge opposing ones whilst being considerate.

    For me it's the old rights and responsibilities thing - and I do believe too many people believe they can exercise a right without having to accept the responsibility and consequences of that action. I think a lot of it comes down to a lack of proper dialogue and understanding the ways in which we all use language and the ways in which each of us interpret it. From my experience, humans seem so intent on trying to categorise life and everything in between, and package it into neat little boxes, when it reality, I think life is one big messy chaotic bundle, and every single one of us has a unique, individual experience of it.

    On a linguistic level, I do believe that the language we use does have a strong role in how certain social attitudes are subconsciously retained and sustained, e.g. addressing a mixed group of people as 'guys', or the fact that there is a split between addressing a married woman and an unmarried woman (Mrs and Miss) but not the same split for men in the same manner - it's simply Mr. To that end, I would say that there is a certain partriarchal impact embedded within many languages around the world that has reinforced what I see as attitudes that are hampering us as a society. However, whilst it's something I've found quite a few people agree with, that's still just a hypothesis I'm working on - I don't have any substantial evidence at this stage that shows a causal link.

    With regard to the announcement change, I'm not sure it's necessary (or unnecessary, even) but then as a pretty run-on-the-mill straight white guy, I'm not in the best position to comment. I can put my imagination to the test but I can't truly put myself in the shoes and understand how a trans person feels, whether mid-process or once they've completed their transition, in a society that's still getting to grips - and at times struggling - with gender and sexuality as a fluid concept rather than the much more binary notion that seems to have taken hold, particularly during the late 19th/20th centuries.

    If there was/is a substantive body of evidence developed over an extensive period of study to say that either the greeting was having a detrimental impact and the change will have a positive change (in whatever form that might be), I say fair play, go for it.

    Quite a few of my female friends get annoyed by the being referred to as 'lady' as they feel it conjures up a notion of women as shrinking violets etc. I can think of a few men I've met in my time who to my mind are certainly no gentlemen. Conversely, my aunt is chairman of a company, and she insists on being referred to as chairman rather than chair, chairwoman, or chairperson. Make of all that what you will!

    However, I think it's fair to say that words' meanings and inferences change over time. If the announcement had been 'men and women', I'd say most people would likely find it a bit strange, but then in terms of the words themselves, it's not much different, it's just how we interpret them - it's addressing an anonymous group of people in a binary fashion because that's just these things have always been done.

    I sincerely doubt it was ever brought into being with the intent of marginalising anyone, but if there are people who feel marginalised as a result and such a consequence is entirely avoidable by simply changing it, then I don't have much issue. I guess I come the school of thought that 'life is change' - although that's not to say that I think change in and of itself is synonymous with progress - so I think it's far more problematic to not explore and consider a change because of tradition, the status quo etc.

    I hope there's some sense in there - and apologies for it being a bit lengthy!

    H

    (PS: just for clarity, none of the above was necessarily assuming you thought the opposite or dissimilar, am just trying to frame my viewpoint as clearly as I can so it's easier for everyone to understand where I come from )
    Hey no need to apologise for the length of the post and thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I think it's great to get an in depth look at other perspectives and sometimes allows me to see things a different way and be more understanding. I found it most interesting to read the part about your female friends who don't like being called ladies and your aunt who likes to be called chairman, it opens my eyes to the fact there is people out there who take these things seriously. I think you hit the nail on the head though with your paragraph about it not being brought in with the intent to offend, that for me is always the key. Yes there are things we can learn along the way but I'd say it's a lot easier than some people make it to tell the difference between an offensive term and when someone is intentionally being offensive than when someone is using non offensive langauage. It was like the whole black board thing which was referring to a board that was black (quite a sensible name blackboard I'd suggest) how can anyone deem that offensive yet this rumour which I think it ended up being was spread about that we should call it chalk board. I think things like this get in the way of progress. Anyway always interesting to hear different views on things I certainly take on board what your saying.
  11. Originally posted by deanallison:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40591750

    Sorry I feel the need to post this here and if it's going to cause offence then please delete my comment but what exactly is the world coming to. Banning ladies and gentlemen announcements, cmon. I'm as open minded as they come, gay, straight, black, white, transgender we all deserve the same respect but are we really saying the terms ladies and gentlemen are offensive? The worlds becoming a ridiculously over sensitive place, I'm completely against mocking people and using derogatory terms but I think people out there are starting to create further problems by using these steps which I actually think singles out certain people who they claim to be welcoming and causes more of a scene if you like around the issue. Please correct me in wrong though I would like to hear the point of view of someone who is for this and previously didn't feel welcome so I can understand it better.
    Hypocrisy lives within us all. It's a human flaw. Gay, straight, black, white or transgender - it does not distinguish. It is stronger in those who don't see it in themselves. If they decided to say "boys and girls" or "men and women" some would take issue as well. Without getting complex, don't we all identify as one or the other?
  12. Originally posted by blueeyedboy:[..]
    Hypocrisy lives within us all. It's a human flaw. Gay, straight, black, white or transgender - it does not distinguish. It is stronger in those who don't see it in themselves. If they decided to say "boys and girls" or "men and women" some would take issue as well. Without getting complex, don't we all identify as one or the other?
    I would have thought we all identify as one or the other but then perhaps there is a very small minority who don't. I think if you really are someone though who doesn't define themself by a particular gender it's still bizarre that you would be offended by the original announcement or feel unwelcome. I'm trying not to be dismissive of others feelings but I genuinly don't understand the likes of this one. As I've said above though always good to get others perspective.