TJT
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Joshua Tree Tour 2019
 Legs (1): New Zealand, Australia and Asia
Shows: 15
  1. Not only in U2 land - it's a common thing for many many bands both big, medium and small. In U2's case it changed when they started working with one general promoter (LiveNation) instead of dealing with individual, local promoters. That happened after Popmart. They've been doing this "fake sold out" thing since the Elevation Tour, which was (and still is) widely believed to be a complete commercial success - and of course IT WAS, but not all of the dates were really sold out.

    The "sold outs" that we see since the Elevation Tour aren't real and it's a well known matter among those who have a lil bit of knowledge about boxscores. The total amount of tickets sold on the day of the concert is considered SOLD OUT no matter what, whatever it is a real sell-out or not. The maximum capacity figure you see in the boxscores that get published after the gigs is given by LiveNation themselves, so they adjust it at will. Billboard only reports what the promoters (aka LiveNation) provide. It's a similar system to how the Gold/Platinum/Diamond Record certifications work - it's actually the record companies who PAY for those, there's no "supra entity" that awards them. To fulfill the analogy, LiveNation reporting fake sold-outs to Billboard would be the equivalent to Universal Music paying the RIAA to award U2 another gold record.

    Since the PopMart disaster the sell-out issue has become more of an image/prestige thing than an actual economic concern. They make loads of money from every show no matter what. Attendance figures were real up to 1998, when they were reported by local promoters.

    A final example to summarize things up: who can imagine a more successful tour than Zoo TV? Well, many (and I mean MANY) of the Zoo TV concerts were NOT even close to selling out (specially in the Outside Broadcast and Zooropa legs), and local promoters reported the actual attendance figures. If that tour took place today, ALL of the dates would be regarded as "sold-out".
  2. Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]
    Not only in U2 land - it's a common thing for many many bands both big, medium and small. In U2's case it changed when they started working with one general promoter (LiveNation) instead of dealing with individual, local promoters. That happened after Popmart. They've been doing this "fake sold out" thing since the Elevation Tour, which was (and still is) widely believed to be a complete commercial success - and of course IT WAS, but not all of the dates were really sold out.

    The "sold outs" that we see since the Elevation Tour aren't real and it's a well known matter among those who have a lil bit of knowledge about boxscores. The total amount of tickets sold on the day of the concert is considered SOLD OUT no matter what, whatever it is a real sell-out or not. The maximum capacity figure you see in the boxscores that get published after the gigs is given by LiveNation themselves, so they adjust it at will. Billboard only reports what the promoters (aka LiveNation) provide. It's a similar system to how the Gold/Platinum/Diamond Record certifications work - it's actually the record companies who PAY for those, there's no "supra entity" that awards them. To fulfill the analogy, LiveNation reporting fake sold-outs to Billboard would be the equivalent to Universal Music paying the RIAA to award U2 another gold record.

    Since the PopMart disaster the sell-out issue has become more of an image/prestige thing than an actual economic concern. They make loads of money from every show no matter what. Attendance figures were real up to 1998, when they were reported by local promoters.

    A final example to summarize things up: who can imagine a more successful tour than Zoo TV? Well, many (and I mean MANY) of the Zoo TV concerts were NOT even close to selling out (specially in the Outside Broadcast and Zooropa legs), and local promoters reported the actual attendance figures. If that tour took place today, ALL of the dates would be regarded as "sold-out".
    I am very well aware that this can be hard to digest for some fans that don't know (or care) how the live music industry works, but this is not an opinion of mine - it's facts, it's crude truth.

    "Sold out" doesn't mean "we managed to sell every single seat and standing spot in this venue" anymore - it just means "look at this figure: that's all of the attendees that we gathered in this concert".
  3. Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]
    Not only in U2 land - it's a common thing for many many bands both big, medium and small. In U2's case it changed when they started working with one general promoter (LiveNation) instead of dealing with individual, local promoters. That happened after Popmart. They've been doing this "fake sold out" thing since the Elevation Tour, which was (and still is) widely believed to be a complete commercial success - and of course IT WAS, but not all of the dates were really sold out.

    The "sold outs" that we see since the Elevation Tour aren't real and it's a well known matter among those who have a lil bit of knowledge about boxscores. The total amount of tickets sold on the day of the concert is considered SOLD OUT no matter what, whatever it is a real sell-out or not. The maximum capacity figure you see in the boxscores that get published after the gigs is given by LiveNation themselves, so they adjust it at will. Billboard only reports what the promoters (aka LiveNation) provide. It's a similar system to how the Gold/Platinum/Diamond Record certifications work - it's actually the record companies who PAY for those, there's no "supra entity" that awards them. To fulfill the analogy, LiveNation reporting fake sold-outs to Billboard would be the equivalent to Universal Music paying the RIAA to award U2 another gold record.

    Since the PopMart disaster the sell-out issue has become more of an image/prestige thing than an actual economic concern. They make loads of money from every show no matter what. Attendance figures were real up to 1998, when they were reported by local promoters.

    A final example to summarize things up: who can imagine a more successful tour than Zoo TV? Well, many (and I mean MANY) of the Zoo TV concerts were NOT even close to selling out (specially in the Outside Broadcast and Zooropa legs), and local promoters reported the actual attendance figures. If that tour took place today, ALL of the dates would be regarded as "sold-out".
    Thanks for the longer explanation. I'm going along with the line of thinking that after Popmart the U2 organization put an emphasis on selling out concerts. There are 2 things though:

    1. I agree that they play with "available tickets" versus "venue capacity". The thing I'm curious about though is if LN can simply adjust the # of available tickets after the concert took place. Retracting seats and giving tickets away up to concert day - very likely happens (a lot). If they can just change the number afterwards I'm curious to see some proof of that, because....

    2. LiveNation manages a lot of artists too. So f.e. Paul Mccartney essentially not only has the same promoter and ticket-seller, but also falls under the same "management tree". Why would he report non-sellouts (some are <1000 from sellout) if they share the same promoter and management? Similar for a lot of other major acts..
  4. Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]
    I am very well aware that this can be hard to digest for some fans that don't know (or care) how the live music industry works, but this is not an opinion of mine - it's facts, it's crude truth.

    "Sold out" doesn't mean "we managed to sell every single seat and standing spot in this venue" anymore - it just means "look at this figure: that's all of the attendees that we gathered in this concert".
    So my nuance for your latest statement would be:

    "Sold-out means we sold (or gave away) every ticket that we decided to put on sale up until the moment the concert starts"

    That could include things that happened on this AUS/NZ leg, like moving the stage forward in Adelaide, blocking off a few sections at Auckland 2, and giving tickets away to factory workers. The point is that this all happened prior to the show...
  5. Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]
    I am very well aware that this can be hard to digest for some fans that don't know (or care) how the live music industry works, but this is not an opinion of mine - it's facts, it's crude truth.

    "Sold out" doesn't mean "we managed to sell every single seat and standing spot in this venue" anymore - it just means "look at this figure: that's all of the attendees that we gathered in this concert".
    why would that be hard to digest? it's a bit of an inconsistent story you're telling there.. I doubt it's all facts.. sounds more like the usual 'U2start expert facts' that we see often around here (sorry if that sounds a bit crude).. let's hear some more from the real insiders and more experienced fans.. funny thing is that the only time I saw a U2 show that didn't look like it was sold out was Rotterdam 1 in 1997 even though tickets were gone in a couple of hours.. what happened there?? as far as I remember Elevation tour had a few shows on leg 3 that didn't entirely sell out and I think they were also labeled like that in either Pimm Jal's concert documentary or the Elevate Me Here book (or maybe both, can't check them right now)... wikipedia is not always the best source both Elevation and Vertigo were a big blockbusters, not much reason to fake any numbers for that tour..
    So, seems like they are just playing a bit with capacity numbers, but still attendance figures should be quite accurate right?
  6. Originally posted by melon51:[..]
    Thanks for the longer explanation. I'm going along with the line of thinking that after Popmart the U2 organization put an emphasis on selling out concerts. There are 2 things though:

    1. I agree that they play with "available tickets" versus "venue capacity". The thing I'm curious about though is if LN can simply adjust the # of available tickets after the concert took place. Retracting seats and giving tickets away up to concert day - very likely happens (a lot). If they can just change the number afterwards I'm curious to see some proof of that, because....

    2. LiveNation manages a lot of artists too. So f.e. Paul Mccartney essentially not only has the same promoter and ticket-seller, but also falls under the same "management tree". Why would he report non-sellouts (some are <1000 from sellout) if they share the same promoter and management? Similar for a lot of other major acts..
    Auckland2 is a very clear example that they CAN adjust the # of tickets after the show(s) took place. They've just split the total attendance of 69800 people between both nights, assuming the same number of fans (34900) attended both nights - when that's obviously not true.

    A very easy method to check when they're faking/masking attendance figures is checking the GROSS per show. There's no way to fake that figure and it speaks louder than a thousand words:

    Auckland 1 + 2 (two shows) gross: US $7.3 million
    Melbourne (one show) gross: US $7 million

  7. Originally posted by Ricku2:[..]
    why would that be hard to digest? it's a bit of an inconsistent story you're telling there.. I doubt it's all facts.. sounds more like the usual 'U2start expert facts' that we see often around here (sorry if that sounds a bit crude).. let's hear some more from the real insiders and more experienced fans.. funny thing is that the only time I saw a U2 show that didn't look like it was sold out was Rotterdam 1 in 1997 even though tickets were gone in a couple of hours.. what happened there?? as far as I remember Elevation tour had a few shows on leg 3 that didn't entirely sell out and I think they were also labeled like that in either Pimm Jal's concert documentary or the Elevate Me Here book (or maybe both, can't check them right now)... wikipedia is not always the best source both Elevation and Vertigo were a big blockbusters, not much reason to fake any numbers for that tour..
    So, seems like they are just playing a bit with capacity numbers, but still attendance figures should be quite accurate right?
    The actual attendance numbers must be right, because taxes, income etc would be based on Gross/Attendance.

    I for myself am not ready to believe that they simply change the capacity after the concert to match the attendance figure - resulting in a "sell-out". Playing with capacity beforehand yes, afterwards I don't believe that (yet). If that were possible why don't other LiveNation artists like Macca and Springsteen do that as well?

    Ps. Had €30 tickets for 360 amsterdam and ended up (just me and my brother) in a completely empty block 1st ring. Sat back with legs up and enjoyed free beers from the business lounge there
  8. Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]
    Auckland2 is a very clear example that they CAN adjust the # of tickets after the show(s) took place. They've just split the total attendance of 69800 people between both nights, assuming the same number of fans (34900) attended both nights - when that's obviously not true.

    A very easy method to check when they're faking/masking attendance figures is checking the GROSS per show. There's no way to fake that figure and it speaks louder than a thousand words:

    Auckland 1 + 2 (two shows) gross: US $7.3 million
    Melbourne (one show) gross: US $7 million

    Sorry,

    But that reasoning seems off. They only reported the combined figure for the 2 shows. Nobody says that both nights had equal attendance. If they decided (because of slow sales to reduce capacity for Auckland 2 by blocking off an extra section, that happened beforehand..

    There's a lot of room they can play with before the show, of course within "realistic" measures. Taking a few rows here and there off the market, blocking an extra section all (very likely) have happened. Why even bother with that if you can simply adjust attendance after the show? And again, why doesn't LN do that for their other major acts?

    Think we agree on a lot of this, but I'd like to see some proof for adjusting capacity after the show to match the # of tickets sold...
  9. Originally posted by LikeASong:[..]
    Auckland2 is a very clear example that they CAN adjust the # of tickets after the show(s) took place. They've just split the total attendance of 69800 people between both nights, assuming the same number of fans (34900) attended both nights - when that's obviously not true.

    A very easy method to check when they're faking/masking attendance figures is checking the GROSS per show. There's no way to fake that figure and it speaks louder than a thousand words:

    Auckland 1 + 2 (two shows) gross: US $7.3 million
    Melbourne (one show) gross: US $7 million

    there's not a big difference in average gross per ticket.. also not every stadium is the same.. Melbourne had a lot more seats to sell relative to GA.. also there are diffences in currency, discounted prices etc..
  10. Originally posted by melon51:[..]
    Sorry,

    But that reasoning seems off. They only reported the combined figure for the 2 shows. Nobody says that both nights had equal attendance. If they decided (because of slow sales to reduce capacity for Auckland 2 by blocking off an extra section, that happened beforehand..

    There's a lot of room they can play with before the show, of course within "realistic" measures. Taking a few rows here and there off the market, blocking an extra section all (very likely) have happened. Why even bother with that if you can simply adjust attendance after the show? And again, why doesn't LN do that for their other major acts?

    Think we agree on a lot of this, but I'd like to see some proof for adjusting capacity after the show to match the # of tickets sold...
    Straight from the U2songs article: In Auckland earlier this month, NZ, U2 played two nights, to a combined crowd of 69,823 people. The venue capacity is listed as 34,911 in the report, meaning both shows are listed as sold out. U2 grossed $7.3 million US Dollars with these two shows.
  11. Why LN don't do that for other acts is beyond me and I don't have any reason to deny or justify that - just like I wouldn't have any reason to tell all of this if it wasn't true. It's just that I've seen it happen in front of me. I have been invited at shows with entire sections empty (or given away as invitations) that were later published as sellouts.
  12. Originally posted by melon51:[..]
    Ps. Had €30 tickets for 360 amsterdam and ended up (just me and my brother) in a completely empty block 1st ring. Sat back with legs up and enjoyed free beers from the business lounge there
    Yet that show was published as sold out (just like every other 360 shows, even those with blatantly empty sections).